In this episode of the groCTO Originals podcast, host Kovid Batra is joined by Carlos Neves, the Head of Engineering at Vitality, as they explore the often challenging transition from an individual contributor (IC) to an Engineering Manager (EM).
With over 15 years of experience in engineering and leadership, Carlos shares his journey from Portugal to the UK, his initial interest in computer science influenced by a cousin, and his passion for salsa dancing. The discussion delves into the importance of gaining horizontal exposure within an organization, understanding the nuances of management beyond technical skills, and building confidence to overcome imposter syndrome. Carlos emphasizes the significance of proactive communication, trusting the team through delegation, and seeking mentorship. He shares insights into making a conscious decision to transition into management, highlighting the need for self-assessment regarding technical passions and people management skills.
The episode concludes with advice for those considering this career path and the introduction of groCTO Connect, a mentoring initiative aimed at helping technical leaders advance.
Kovid Batra: Hi everyone. This is Kovid, back with another episode of groCTO podcast. And today with us, we have our special guest, Carlos. He is Head of Engineering at Vitality, having more than 15 plus years of engineering and leadership experience. Welcome to the show, Carlos. Happy to have you here.
Carlos Neves: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here and share my experience with you today.
Kovid Batra: Of course, we are looking forward to a lot of learning. And before we get started on our today’s topic, which is the ‘Not-so-easy transition from an IC to an EM role’, uh, we would love to know a little bit more about you. Uh, I, I, I had a very brief intro here, but I would love to know more about you, uh, your hobbies, uh, your childhood, your teenage and how you transitioned into who you are today. So, over to you. Uh, tell us about yourself, something that probably social media doesn’t know.
Carlos Neves: Well, there’s a lot of that, but, um, so first of all, actually I’m Portuguese, um, moved to the UK about eight years ago. Um, it was a, an interesting transition, a new culture, a new way of living, but very happy with that move, um, so far, at least. Uh, in terms of how I got to this, um, to what I got to today, I guess it was mainly influenced by one of my cousins. Uh, I saw him as a little bit of a mentor. When I was a teenager, he was very much keen into computers and computer science and programming. And I was like, “Oh, that looks interesting. So, uh, it’s just something that I will actually enjoy doing.” I remember that I was a little bit on the fence between, uh, following a computer science degree or, uh, going into, um, physical education at the time. So being a PE teacher, but, uh, yeah, in the end, computer science won, um, and I never looked back and it’s been so far a very rewarding journey, if I may say so. And something personal that no one, my friends know about it, uh, but social media doesn’t know is that I’m a very avid salsa dancer. Uh..
Kovid Batra: Oh, nice!
Carlos Neves: Yeah, sort of my, my hobbies outside of work.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. So you have a partner with you?
Carlos Neves: Uh, well, usually when, whenever you go to these social events, you tend to find multiple partners there, but yeah, sometimes I do go with, uh, with friends and, uh, not necessarily, uh, a set partner. So you get to swap, uh, partners during, during the event and it’s a lot of fun. It’s a good way to actually interact and socialize with people. I do recommend for anyone that hasn’t tried before.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Perfect. I think that was really interesting. But you mentioned about, uh, it was between physical education and, uh, computer science, right? So like from childhood, teenage, like you had any sport that you were really interested in, you were playing something or it was just, uh, out of curiosity or you like physical education in general?
Carlos Neves: No, I was very active as a kid. Um, so when I was, uh, six, seven, my, my parents put me into swimming. So I’m, until I was 15, did some competition, then transitioned to, uh, athletics. I did athletics from the age of 12 until I was 18. Again, did competition and I really did enjoy the competition side of it. Again, the training with colleagues and, um, that was also a lot of fun. And because I did enjoy that, like that, that part, and it made me feel really, really well about myself, so I did think that maybe this is something that I actually want to do full time. But then, uh, looking at all the options and all the alternatives, I guess that’s, computer science just won in the end. Uh, I can, I’m still very physically active. I do try to hit the gym, uh, multiple times a week. I’m not saying that I’m a hundred percent, a hundred percent successful at that, but I did try my best. Uh, but, um, yeah, I still like to keep myself like fit and healthy as much as possible.
Kovid Batra: No, I think that’s, that’s really great. I think, um, childhood, uh, then when you are, uh, as a kid involved in sports and, uh, I’ve, I’ve seen a lot of my, my peers also who have been there, uh, played state-level, national-level competitions. Ultimately, in their careers, professionally also, came out to be very good leaders in general somehow and I am sure there is some linkage to that where you are more motivated, you’re more, uh, like a fighter spirit is there basically. So I think maybe that really impacts, uh on overall journey as, professionally also, if you see. So yeah, cool. I think that’s, that’s really interesting. So I think, uh, from there, moving into present as a Head of Engineering for Vitality, right? Tell us something about the company. What’s your role here? What do you do as a head of engineering? What kind of responsibilities you have? And, uh, of course we would love to know when you transitioned from the point where you were into engineering and then moving into, uh, you’re at an IC and you are moving into a management role. How did that transition happen?
Carlos Neves: Sure. So currently, as you said, I’m Head of Engineering for Vitality, uh, for those that don’t know Vitality is an insurance company that operates within the health and life space, uh, I’m responsible for the systems that support our members in their both health and life claims journey. Uh, there’s a big focus right now for us in terms of increasing our digital capability, so allowing the members to service themselves mostly digitally. Of course, there’s going to be the need to, uh, sometimes reaching by email or call, uh, but trying to minimize that as much as possible. Um, there’s also been a lot of focus in terms of, uh, after you get, uh, treatment or consultation to allow you, to allow you, the member to, uh, continue that, uh, continuous care, like online, as I said, as much as possible. I did a lot of modernization in terms of our systems that comes as part of the data engineering role, a lot of engagement with a lot of other departments, like the product department, um, eventually sales, um, it’s, I think it’s one of the things that I do enjoy the most as part of my role is that I tend to talk to a lot of different people that do a lot of different things. Uh, there’s a lot of forward-looking in terms of what we want to do in the future. What’s the plan for the next two, three years, where do we want to take our products? Um, and this is something that we’ll get into more detail after, but it’s one of the big differences that I put that I see in the role that you have as an IC versus, uh, an EM or a head of specifically where the, the vision that you have, it’s more shorter term as an IC versus a medium to long term vision for someone that operates at, uh, at this level, to be more specific.
Um, specifically about my, my transition. So, let me think. This was a while back. Uh, so, uh, before as a individual contributor, uh, so I started with Microsoft technologies doing C sharp, uh, messing with SQL databases, uh, mainly full stack at the time, which was actually a very good learning opportunity because you do get the opportunity to, uh, learn how the, how an application works full stack, messed a little bit with the back end, a little bit with the front end, a little bit with the, uh, your data store. And that allows you to understand the effort that goes into each of the different components to have an application up and running. This was still in the times where monoliths were the, the trend, not, uh, as it is today where everything is, well, microservices, not everything, but it’s, it seems that that’s the, the trend right now, even if I’ve seen that some, uh, corporations are, uh, depending the, going back to monoliths, which is, uh, something that, that’s, that’s, that would be a completely different podcast, and, uh, we would spend enough time just discussing that, but that’s, yeah, that’s a different conversation. But in terms of transitioning to, um, an EM or a people, uh, team leader, to be more specific, it happened where my manager at the time actually had to leave the business for personal reasons and I was invited to replace him. Um, it was a surprise, a good surprise, because it’s something that I really, really wanted to do, but still a surprise. It was, um, interesting because when I transitioned, I was told that I could choose the, some of the team members that I would want to work with, which in my opinion, actually helped quite a lot because having people that you can trust with you, people that you actually have worked with before, also does, does help in that transition. But I did feel at the time that I did have a little bit of, uh, an imposter syndrome and said, “Well, why am I doing this? And why isn’t, uh, someone else doing this?” Or, “Why was I invited when there’s people that have been here maybe for longer than I have, uh, and are as good or even better than I am?” But then, after going through that process, I said, “Well, if they chose me, there must be a reason why. So let’s trust the process.” And then I tried to use that to build my confidence, um, because it is, it is, it is a shift, it is a change, and it is something that, um, you need to start thinking differently. So for example, when I was working as a software engineer, it was very much focused on my tasks. What do I need to do today? Uh, I, I did have to interact with colleagues and understand what they were doing, but it was very much, um, not siloed, but focused on, on what I had to do, whilst when I went through this transition, it became, okay, what does my team need to do? What do they need to, uh, to perform their tasks? How can I help them? How can I support them to achieve their goals, their objectives, our common goals are common objectives? And that was one of the, the shifts and one of the changes that I, that I had to face. Um, the fact that you were no longer as close to the detail as before was something that I actually struggled with quite a lot, uh, in the beginning, and I remember a situation where I went to my manager at the time. I said, “ How do you know everything that’s going on around you? Because I’m struggling to provide support to my team and knowing what they need to do, but knowing everything that the other teams are working on.” And he said, “Well, sometimes you just have to trust the people that you work with, trust the process and wait for them to come to you with problems. So if no news, so the premise of no news is good news, try to apply that as much as possible. Only focus on what you really need to focus on.” And with that, with that, uh, example, actually it did help quite a lot because you do, if you do trust the people that you work with, I’m using the word ‘trust’ a lot because that’s one of the core values that I believe that I need to have when working, uh, with a team or with multiple teams, as it is my case today. Um, but going back to what I was saying, by doing that, by just focusing on the problems, you allow them to operate how they need to operate and you say, “Okay, I’m here to help you. I’m here to support you. I’m here for what you need, and if what you need is actually just to go out for coffee, for example, let’s do that. Let’s let’s talk.” And sometimes it’s not necessarily just about work.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. I think for you, um, it happened coincidentally that the manager left and you got the opportunity to move into this role.
Carlos Neves: Um, yeah.
Kovid Batra: Uh, I think, uh, now when you are here into this journey for maybe more than a few years, uh, let’s say, if there is someone, uh, who is actually at the point where they can consciously make a choice of transitioning, uh, into a technical role then a management role or a management role then a technical role, uh, what do you think are the core, uh, beliefs that that person should have, uh, to be doing great, uh, in this management side of, uh, the technical vertical, I would say? And what all it takes, the change, I think you have already highlighted a few points that the change, changes are really, really drastic because initially you are just not siloed exactly, but you are working on specific things that are bound to be with you and the impact is like here in front of you and you, you do things and you see changes. So, the changes are there, but at the core, I think when you’re making a conscious choice, you need to know who you are, right? And what are those things one should identify in themselves to do good in this journey?
Carlos Neves: Um, the first thing that I would say is how much do you love being a technical-minded person?
Kovid Batra: Okay.
Carlos Neves: To me, that’s the, the, the fundamental thing. Um, if you love, so talking about engineering specifically, if you love coding, if you love being part of the technical discussions, if you, if it’s something that you know that you’re going to miss, maybe being an engineering manager or a team leader is not for you because the higher up you go, the less opportunity you’re going to have to, to do that. Uh, there are some, some exceptions, of course, where there are some, um, Head of Engineering roles or even, uh, CTO roles that are hands-on, but that’s in my, in my experience, that’s the exception. So if you do really enjoy, um, that aspect of the, of the job, so being technical, being hands-on, maybe moving into that, uh, Engineering Manager role is not necessarily for you. Also, how much do you enjoy managing people? And this is also something that is very, very important because you are no longer focusing just on, on you, on yourself as an individual, you’re supposed to, uh, nurture, guide, mentor, find the opportunity for the people that, uh, you’re responsible for to, to grow. So if you don’t like that aspect of the job, then again, maybe it’s not for you.
Um, so, but if you do, and if you do enjoy talking to other people, if you do enjoy learning more about the, the wider aspect of the, of the business that you’re trying to, uh, to support and you work for, if you’re, if you do enjoy, um, guiding, showing, giving people direction, tell them, uh, show them how their day-to-day work is influencing positively the goals of the company, then yes, by all means go for it. Um, be intentional about it. Try to find within your, your team opportunities to take some of the tasks that your current team leader does. So one of the things that I always tried to do, uh, was to identify within my teams if there were people that actually wanted to take in that step, uh, in the near future and try to expose them to some of the activities that were delegated, that were my responsibility. So I would delegate to them, uh, let’s say, uh, talking to, uh, architects or talking to, uh, some of the, the people from, from the, from the product, uh, teams and by doing that, you can actually assess, “Okay, do I enjoy doing this or is it something that I actually I had in my mind, but it’s not something that I actually do, uh, see myself doing every single day?” Because that’s the thing, uh, doing it every single day, it’s different from doing it every now and then.
Kovid Batra: Yes.
Carlos Neves: The good thing is you can also try it for a while and if it doesn’t work out, you can always refer back to the, the, the, the role that you had before. And I think that’s the, one of the things that people sometimes need to consider is that a choice that you make today is not necessarily a choice for life.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. I think that’s a very good advice and I feel, uh, if someone wants to even try that, uh, one can actually get the taste of it at a technical leader role, right? A team lead role, basically, where you are involved technically, and I have seen most of the team leaders, tech leaders are coding also, and at the same time coding their teams in every possible way. So, I think for anyone who wants to see how things would look like, can get a taste of it as soon as they step into a team lead kind of a role. But the thing is like, uh, most of the people, uh, are driven by two primary reasons to make those career moves. One is, of course, uh, what you like to do, what aligns with your character, your identity, your personality. And the second is, of course, uh, how it is going to progress financially also, right? That, that also becomes a concern for people. So in, in your opinion, how do you think, uh, in, in a futuristic way, uh, things can impact someone financially, they’re taking the technical route or, uh, a management route in, in any company, for say? Maybe you can’t generalize it, but I am asking a general question. You can, of course, answer it the way you feel about this.
Carlos Neves: Well, I guess it all depends where you want to get to. So, um, when you get to that, um, Senior Software Engineer, Principal Software Engineer role or Principal Test Engineer role, so where you are considered to be a specialist that people can look for with any guidance, right? Someone that’s going to help shape a technical decision. Someone that’s going to help define the best technical standards for software engineering and test engineering. Um, from there, eventually the part can become of, of being an architect, solutions architect, enterprise architect, uh, chief enterprise architect. So I think there are ways to progress where you can actually keep being, um, very close to what you enjoy and also seeing that financial benefit. But if you, uh, would rather be a people, people manager, where you go through the Engineering Manager, Head of, CTO, uh, role, then again, there are, there’s different, there are different parts, but you can still get the benefits, the financial benefits that you were talking about. It’s just making sure that at the end of the day, that you still enjoy what you’re doing. Um, in my case, one of the things that actually made me, uh, make this shift wasn’t necessarily, well, of course, the financial, the financial gains are important, but it was actually the fact that I, I enjoy working with people and enjoy working as part of a team and try to expand my, uh, my remit in terms of, uh, who I was interacting with day-to-day. Um, I like to understand or get a better understanding of what I’m doing, how it’s impacting the wider business, and I think that’s where this, uh, want, want came from. It wasn’t necessarily just the, the financial benefits.
But just going back to what I was saying, try to understand, uh, which part makes more sense to you, but I wouldn’t say necessarily that one would be, uh, detrimental in terms of the financial benefit or not. And there’s been, there’s plenty of situations where even software engineers are quite well paid if the skills that they have are quite uncommon in the market. So if that’s the case, if you’re a specialist in an area that there’s not a lot of offer, then you also get that benefit of being, well, financially rewarded and still doing what you love.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. So let’s, let’s talk about, uh, the point where let’s say, I have taken the decision to move from an IC to a management role. Uh, now what should I start doing today? Let’s say, today I’m a Senior Software Engineer, or let’s say I’m a, I’m a Tech Lead. What should I start doing to get to the next step? Uh, what kind of, uh, uh, impact should I be, uh, reflecting on the team on the things that I’m doing so that the managers, the leaders of the teams are feeling that, okay, I am the right person to be pulled up to this particular, uh, profile? So it happened for you coincidentally, but I’m sure in retrospect, you tell what they saw in you and how, how it turned out. So what do you think, uh, one should start doing today?
Carlos Neves: So I think the first thing is look at the people that, uh, you report into and let them know that that’s something that you do want to do. First thing that’s, that should be the first, the first step. Second is if you feel that the person that you report into is not given the opportunities to, um, get exposed to some of the activities that normally would be given to, to them, then again, ask them, “Is it okay if next time I do this presentation?”, “Is it okay if next time I get the data for this report?” For example, one of the things that an engineer manager has to do is to look at their team metrics, uh, to understand how they’re progressing, if things are going according to plan. Okay, “Is that something that I can do on my own even if my Engineering Manager or my, my Team Lead is actually doing it?” I have access to the information so I can actually go and have a look and understand how is my team performing, if there’s something that is not necessarily right, how, what can I do to, um, to change things? I guess all this summarizes into being intentional. Identify the areas where you, you know, that your Team Lead needs to operate in and try to go in, have a look at what you need to do. Um, but again, it all comes on to being supported by, by that person that it’s, uh, that you’re reporting to. So your, your Line Manager. Uh, if that’s not really an option, then sometimes you need to look for that opportunity elsewhere, even though it’s more difficult because people don’t tend to hire based on the belief that you can do a job. You need to prove that you can do the job itself. So it’s usually easier to find that opportunity, um, within the organization that you’re already working with. But I guess it’s just trying to find that opportunity, if not in your team, within the business, but in a different team. Don’t be afraid of moving horizontally because that can bring benefits. It’s also going to actually give you exposure to other parts of the business that, uh, is going to give you more knowledge, become well-rounded across the, the business, and that’s something that is really valued, uh, when you go and do higher, more, in more senior roles, I would say.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. I think, um, this is one, uh, very good way, like going out and explicitly mentioning, uh, it to your manager that you want to move into that role. Of course, that really, really helps in terms of highlighting. Okay. For the manager also, it becomes easier to align people, make sure that they stick because their role is to keep people happy, right? And when they know what they are wanting, it’s much easier for them to deliver that. But let’s say, there are situations where the opportunity is not being given by the manager. What else can someone do on their own? What they can do in their day-to-day routine, uh, to actually reflect those traits? And maybe the manager themselves come asking for it, or maybe, let’s say, you are working with a cross-functional team, the other people appreciate that trait of yours, uh, and they start looking at you from that point of view that, oh, yeah, this person could be, uh, moved into a management role or a Tech Lead role and, uh, moving forward. So what, what, what are those kinds of things that probably a Senior Software Engineer or a Tech Lead should start doing from today on their own?
Carlos Neves: Uh, so one of the things that you mentioned that is very, very important is being, uh, someone that is good technically, that a team can rely on and support for guidance, but it’s also trying to be a leader underneath your leader, if it makes sense. So what do I mean by that? Someone that, uh, your team can go to and trust if they feel that they need some, some support. It’s someone that people from outside your team can go to if they have any questions, you need to be seen as someone that knows what they’re doing, that understands, uh, the, the benefit that the team brings, that understands other parts of the business, someone that is seen as an expert in their field, I think that would be the first thing. But it’s also putting yourself out there, and what I said before, in terms of putting yourself out there and telling, telling your manager that you have this, this want and this objective, but talk to other people about it. One, one thing that actually I did indirectly that I think also helped when people thought about me at the time was looking for guidance and mentors outside of my most immediate circle, because when you do that, people, they do realize that you do want, you’re doing more, that you’re ambitious, that you’re trying to, uh, get outside of what you do now and you want to step into a more senior role. And not only that, people get to know you, and that’s one very important thing that is, if people don’t know you, they’re not going to think about you, uh, when an opportunity comes because there’s going to be someone else they’re going to think of first. So put yourself out there.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Totally makes sense. So moving on from, uh, what one should be doing at this point of time when they’re wanting to be there, uh, next step is like foreseeing the challenges that are coming on them. I, you briefly talked about it already, but I think, uh, I want to deep dive into what are those experiences? Like, if you could just give me some examples that as soon as you moved into that role, what was the first experience which made you realize where am I, what should I be doing now? Something of that sort, so that people who are really looking up to that should know, okay, what’s on their way now.
Carlos Neves: Well, I guess it depends on the team that you’re going to be looking after. But one thing that, well, two things actually that I think might, might happen, uh, in a way that kind of happened to me. Uh, one is trust yourself, otherwise that imposter syndrome that I mentioned before, it might consume you and then you’re going to be so focused in trying to prove to others that you can actually do it, that you’re going to forget how you should actually be focusing on the job itself. Um, I’ll explain a little bit more on that. So there’s two things that you actually, uh, that I faced, actually. One was the, that imposter syndrome that, uh, in the beginning kind of affected my, my confidence and I got so concerned about what others were thinking that I forgot about doing the, the, the job itself. I was so concerned about, but what if they think that I’m not good enough? What if they, uh, think that I’m not the best person for the job? Don’t, don’t, don’t fall into that trap. As I said before, if you’re appointed to do something, trust that you’re the right person for the job, focus on your skills, focus on the benefits that you believe that you can bring to the team because we’re all different. Different people will manage differently. There’s not necessarily one, uh, size fits all when it comes to management.
And then, I guess the other thing is the fact that some people will, again, try and question. So it’s the same thing, but in coming from others, actually, you get to experience people coming to you and not necessarily asking, “Why are you my manager now when two weeks ago we were peers?”
Kovid Batra: Yeah.
Carlos Neves: But there are some things that you can pick up where actually you can sense that people are almost trying to test you and don’t fall into the trap again of trying to convince them that you’re the right person for the job. So focus on what you think the job is. Look upwards for guidance. Look, not necessarily your Line Manager, but other people that are, uh, that you tend to work with, as long as they have, they have more experience than you, it might be another Team Lead or another Engineering Manager that has done, has done it for a lot longer than you, and you can look at them for guidance and say, “Well, I’m doing this. Do you think this is something that is working or do you have any advice for me to do something slightly differently?” So, try to use that as a, as a sounding board, but don’t fall into the trap of trying to convince others that you’re the right person for the job. So, focus on you.
Kovid Batra: And, um, just to add to it, I think, uh, I have a few friends who have moved into this role and they’re mostly, uh, uh, being troubled, uh, with the fact that now they are not actually doing something related to engineering. They’re mostly managing people, right? And you also mentioned in the beginning that it becomes more about that. And, uh, of course, it doesn’t come, uh, very naturally to a lot of people, uh, who have been into the tech space for, let’s say, a good 5 to 8 to 10 years. And, uh, And then, uh, they’re moving into this role. So now in that situation, I think, uh, what, what would be that right piece of advice for people to change that core belief system? Because it, you become like that, right? You, you tend to be more, I wouldn’t say introvert, introvert could be a wrong word here, but something of that sort where, uh, right communication, uh, handling things proactively so that they don’t end up messed up, end up getting messed up. So things like that happen and, and I think the core thing lies within the frame of having the right communication style, right communication. So how, how one should learn to do that? Because that’s very evident that one needs to do that. How, how should one be doing that in that role?
Carlos Neves: So just, just a few things on that, that is in terms of letting go, I think the best thing that you can do is actually just delegate. And by delegating, I don’t mean delegating your new tasks into your team. Delegate the tasks that you believe that you still, that you should still be doing, to your team, because in the first few months, what’s going to happen is your mindset is going to be, “Oh, I need to go and look at the code.”, “I need to go and check that, that pull request to make sure that it’s following the standards.” No, I’m not saying let it go completely, but if you know the people that you’re working with, you know that you can trust them, just delegate it to them. Don’t, try not to think about it. Again, tell them that if there’s anything that is wrong, if there’s a problem, come to me. Leave that to the side and focus on what does my team need? How are they performing? What does my team require to perform this task? Are they blocked by something? Are they, is there something that I can do differently that would benefit them? I think that’s when things start to, uh, settle down from, from that shift from, uh, an Engineering Manager role, when you start thinking about the team first.
Kovid Batra: Got it.
Carlos Neves: And in terms of communication, one of the things that I do even today is talk to everyone individually, of course, make time to talk to your team individually. Try to understand what their motivations are. Try to understand what drives them. Try to understand how things are going even outside of work, because we’re, we don’t, we’re not just employees. We have a life outside of work.
Kovid Batra: Yeah.
Carlos Neves: That is more important, I would say, at least for me, it’s more important than going into the office nine to five and then that’s, that’s, that’s all of your life. So, and that has a big influence on how you perform at work. So, if there’s anything that is happening, try to be available if they want to talk to you. Um, and finding that space where people start to trust you and they, they come to you for problems, they come to you for good things, and that, that’s when you actually, the communication is flowing. The communication is good between us. They trust me. They feel like I’m here to help them. They feel like I’m here to guide them and do what’s best for them. And it takes, it takes a lot of time to get to that point, but the main thing is stop thinking about what you can do, how, uh, how your own individual work is going to impact you, but try to think more about this is what my team needs. This is what the group of people that I’m responsible for can drive and can succeed because your success comes from their success.
Kovid Batra: Cool. I think, uh, the last line you said is the most impactful one for this role probably, like their success is my success and that’s how one should be progressing, and that’s the mind shift one would need when they’re moving from the role, from the IC role to an EM kind of a role. So cool, Carlos. I think, uh, there is a lot more to talk about this topic, but I am sorry, we can’t cover it in one, one session that we’re having with you. We’d love to have you for another session, maybe seeing how you progress from an EM role to a Head of Engineering role. That could be another discussion totally. And, uh, happy to have you again, uh, anytime, whenever you, you, you think you have time to discuss about it.
And, uh, talking about the mentoring piece, uh, just for our audience to, uh, let them know, uh, groCTO has come up with the, uh, groCTO Connect, uh, initiative where we are helping these EMs, ICs, technical leaders connect with leadership people for their mentorship to grow to the next level. So it’s groCTO Connect. Uh, we’d be happy if people want to send in requests. I’ll share the link of our groCTO Connect page in the comments. And with that, Carlos, thank you so much for your time. Loved having you here, really insightful talk. See you soon.
Carlos Neves: Thank you very much for the opportunity again. It was a pleasure. And reach out, I’ll be always available.
Kovid Batra: Thank you. Thank you so much, Carlos.
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