In the recent episode of ‘Beyond the Code’, Host Kovid Batra welcomes Limor Bergman, tech leadership coach and mentor with a rich background in organizations such as DigitalOcean, Quantum, Sun Microsystems, and more. She also hosts her podcast series ‘From a Woman to a Leader’. Their conversation revolves around ‘Empowering Women in Tech’.
The podcast begins with a fun fireside chat with Limor, allowing the audience to see her candid side. Later in the main section, She delves into the distinct journey of women in the tech industry, and strategies for overcoming them. Limor provides insights into managing fast-changing technology challenges in engineering teams and making optimal choices in tech career. She also shed light on how to define the success of your engineering teams.
Lastly, Limor shares parting advice for the audience, encouraging them to take risks and embrace failures.
Kovid Batra: Hi everyone! This is Kovid, your host at Beyond the Code by Typo. I am back with another episode and a new guest who is passionate and a powerful engineering leader. She has an experience of 20+ years, currently serving as an executive coach and a mentor. She’s all about supporting women in tech. She runs her own podcast, ‘From Woman to a Leader’. She’s coming up with season 2 of the podcast, which is ‘Women of Color’, where you can find her talking about different diverse cultures and women growing as a leader there. Welcome to the show, Limor. Great to have you here.
Limor Bergman: Hi, Kovid. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure being here today.
Kovid Batra: Perfect.
So, all right. I’ll quickly tell you about the format of the show, Limor. We start with a quick fireside chat, and then we jump into the experiences that you have had as an engineering leader. So this fireside chat is to know more about you outside of work a little bit, some interesting things about you.
So, are you ready for some quick questions?
Limor Bergman: Yeah, absolutely.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. So, let’s get started. I have been like reading a lot about the tech blogs, the tech bloggers who have been producing a lot of content and you being one of those. I just really wanted to understand what inspires people like you who are writers to come up with writing. I have this thing, which I really need to know and understand because I someday want to write a book, whatever I’m learning from here. So yeah, that’s the first question for you.
Limor Bergman: Absolutely. And, I want to write a book as well, to be honest with you. It’s on my plan as well. So actually, you know, when I grew up, I thought that I couldn’t write. It started with a teacher that actually told me that I’m not a good writer. I mean, I was very good in STEM, you know, math, physics, chemistry, but I got kind of a traumatic experience from writing. It was traumatic because I got negative feedback. And also, you know, although I took a tutor and that was like the only tutor I took in high school just for writing. And my teacher was always criticizing me and that left, you know, an impact for years to come. That. Yeah, I may not be able to write, but what happened, the interesting thing that happened then, I wanted to express myself. I wanted to share my thoughts. I wanted to share with others, you know, all the insights I had and I actually started writing.
Kovid Batra: Okay.
Limor Bergman: And I found out that first, I really enjoy it. And then, I also, I’m not that bad. I mean, it’s not that terrible. And the great part nowadays, because everyone can be a writer, right? Everyone can write a book. Everyone can start a blog. You don’t have to be Shakespeare. You don’t have to be like super-duper excellent. Just express yourself, be genuine, express and share what you have, and do it. Everyone can do it.
Kovid Batra: Yeah, it’s a very simple thing, actually. Like, you just have to have that feeling of expressing your thoughts. You just, you probably can perfect it over a period of time, but you don’t have to fear starting off. You just have to have that feeling that you want to share what you have in your mind.
Perfect, Limor. I think that’s quite enlightening for me at least. All right, moving on to the next question. What advice would you like to share with young joinees in tech?
Limor Bergman: Yeah, that’s another great question. So, I’ll start with a quick story. So, when I started my first software development job, I was still you know, in university and I started like a part-time job. And, the experience was terrible because for multiple reasons. First, I had a very, very unsupportive manager. She was actually a woman. My first manager was a woman, but she was very strict. She was not nice. I guess she felt like she needed to keep a very clear distance. She was not supportive. I really did not enjoy working with her. The second thing is that I was working on ancient things, like on COBOL, on Mainframe, and I hated every second. I hated every second. It was clear to me that while it was comfortable for, you know, while I was at school, you know, because it didn’t require much challenge from my side, it wasn’t going to last. As soon as I’m going to graduate, I cannot keep doing what I was doing.
What I did was that I went to the manager above my manager back then, and I had a conversation with him and I told him, “Listen, I mean, I really like the company. I would like to stay here. But, I cannot continue working with, with that, you know type of work. That’s not what I signed up for. I want to move.” I mean, back then Java was the shiny new technology, new language. And there was a team that actually wrote Java Applets. Yes, I’m that old. So, and I told him, “Listen, I mean, that’s the team I want to join right after I graduate and move to a full-time job, otherwise, I mean, I just cannot see myself staying here.” So, I wasn’t threatening per se, but I was making clear that, I mean, that’s not going to work for me. And, you know what happened? He listened. I mean, I was lucky, right? I mean, he could’ve not listened, but he listened and he moved me to that team.
And long story short, I would say that the advice I would share is that even if you’re just starting out, appreciate yourself and what you are worth, know what you want and don’t be afraid to ask what you want, even if you are just starting out.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. I think I can, I can relate to this feeling and when I had joined my first job, I was always under this impression that something should not go wrong, people should not perceive me wrong. And on top, like the most important thing was the managers, the leads should not perceive me wrong in any way. So, I used to, like not express much and I couldn’t be genuine there and it definitely affected me in a negative way rather than in a positive way. So, that’s a very good piece of advice that you have to be fearless, in a reasonable way. Like, you have to be polite and respectful, of course, for others. But, you cannot be just listening and not expressing your views, not being genuine there. So, yeah, I think that’s a good piece of advice, Limor. Thank you for sharing that experience, by the way.
Limor Bergman: My pleasure.
Kovid Batra: All right. I know you are super passionate, super powerful. I get that vibe. And, I just want to understand what’s your daily dose of energy, like what keeps you going every day when you wake up? What is it that pushes Limor to, like go up?
Limor Bergman: Yeah, absolutely. That’s another great question. So, I like going to the gym. You see, my hair is a little bit wet still because, I just I got back from the gym about an hour ago. So, my daily dose of energy is just running. I actually discovered running, you know, when I was in university. So, I was going to a gym there. But, I stopped for years, you know, when I got married and started a family, I have four children. So, you know, it was hard and I kind of was very inactive. I lived very sedentary lifestyle. In the beginning of my forties, I really wanted to change that. I couldn’t believe I will be able to run. You know, I had those limiting beliefs, it’s impossible for me to run, but I actually worked on breaking those beliefs and started running and found out that it’s a great source of energy for me. It motivates me. It gives me not just motivation, but a lot of strength, a lot of joy. So, that’s kind of my daily dose, either running or just doing weightlifting at the gym, meeting with people, you know, that I already know. That’s what keeps me going.
Kovid Batra: Cool! All right, Limor. Thank you for this fireside chat. And I think we got to know a lot more than we already did about you. So, that really helps.
Now, moving on to the main section, uh, wherein we want to talk about a lot of things. But, we’ll keep our curiosities in our pocket and try to restrict it to a few questions. Can I get started with you there?
Limor Bergman: Absolutely.
Kovid Batra: All right. First of all, it’s already out there, and I really appreciate from the bottom of my heart, the kind of push you are giving to the women in tech. Really hats off to you. We know that this journey is different for a woman in the tech industry. How do you think it is different from the male counterparts? And, what you really think should be done about it?
Limor Bergman: Multiple reasons. I mean, first of all, we are still outnumbered. So, there are fewer women in tech compared to men. When I started my career, for years, I was the only woman working surrounded by men in my team. I was the only woman. It wasn’t terrible. Don’t get me wrong. And, I worked with wonderful men, very supportive. I learned a lot from also very supportive managers, but I felt different. Felt like, “Okay, I’m not exactly the same.” And, sometimes it was harder for me to feel a sense, a sense of belonging, right? Because the men, they wanted to do different things to hook up after work and maybe not everything interested me. And so it’s, it’s about belonging and feeling like I belong, I’m worthy, I’m like the rest of them. Men tend to be very competitive, ego-driven, not a bad thing. I’m not saying that negatively, but it’s like, “Okay, I’m better than you.” Like, they have this tendency to really thrive from competition. I don’t know if you’ve seen that, but men have this tendency.
Kovid Batra: No, definitely that’s there. It’s just that I’m keeping my thoughts to myself and listening to you.
Limor Bergman: Yeah. And for women, at least for me, less so. I thrive by growing and becoming a better version of myself every single day. I don’t care much about how I am compared to others rather than to me. And that, like having those different mentalities, it’s sometimes difficult because I don’t want to compete with someone else. I don’t want to prove anyone that I’m better, I don’t need to necessarily. That can create a lot of uncomfortable feelings. Sometimes confidence issues, when people make comments, not in a mean way, but just that’s the way to communicate because they want to show how better they are. You know, so a lot of more differences, you know, women, you know, create life that comes with its own set of challenges. So, I think that the mentality and the way of communication, and the way of work is kind of very, very different. And the fact that we are outnumbered.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. But, what do you think exactly can we do about it? Actually, that’s something which is a long-term, long-held problem. What do you think today.. I think that ratio has definitely changed from the time probably when you joined as a leader or a woman in tech. Now, it has changed. But, what according to the current scenario can be done around it to solve this problem?
Limor Bergman: I think, first of all, it starts with awareness. Even if you have a team that most of the team are men and there are fewer women, just take that into awareness that how can I make the women in my team feel like they belong, feel comfortable? What can I do to support them and be sensitive to them, to what you say or don’t say? You know, I remember I was deeply, deeply demotivated and hurt by just code review comments that people wrote me because they wrote it in a way that was not sensitive enough. It was like very blunt. Again, nothing, it’s not a bad intention, but it can really hurt confidence of someone when you make a code review that is very, maybe you’re right, or maybe you’re trying to make a point, but it can really hurt the confidence of a woman or even what you share in a meeting and how you, how you talk. If you’re telling someone ‘you’re wrong’, if you use strong words, right? When a woman starts to express an opinion and you kind of contradict her, or maybe talk over her, that can really hurt her confidence. So, just awareness and being a little bit more sensitive can go a long way.
Kovid Batra: Yeah, I think so. That could be the first step, right?
Perfect. Anything else that you have felt in your journey as a woman was different and could have been done differently?
Limor Bergman: I mean, I wish I had met more mentors in my career. You know, when I started, I felt, as I said, I mean, I was always pushing myself forward, but I felt a lot of times confidence issues and whether I’m good enough. I think having more mentors could have helped me with acquiring knowledge, with learning better and faster, with feeling worthy, and probably advancing my career even faster than I did.
Kovid Batra: Do you think does the same problem exist right now for the women of this gen? Like, right now?
Limor Bergman: Yes. But luckily I think that they are, because, you know, it’s a complete different generation. There are a lot of online communities for women.
Kovid Batra: And there are influencers like you who are now helping people.
Limor Bergman: There are influencers like me, that’s true. There are communities. I think that mentorship, sponsorship, you know, all of those things that I didn’t even know existed when I started are kind of the norm. I mean, and I volunteer, by the way, I volunteer in organizations in women-related mentoring organizations. So, yes, there is still a need, but I think that there is more awareness both from the women’s side and also, you know, there are different communities and organizations that support women, both paid and unpaid, by the way, which makes a huge difference.
Kovid Batra: Absolutely. Absolutely. It is critical, it is very important to have a mentor, be it a male or a female. But, how did you find it difficult for a female to find a mentor at that time? Like, again, is this just because of the gender difference or is it in general, like, women don’t have the tendency to go up to a male mentor and talk to them? What exactly is that?
Limor Bergman: I think that, back then I didn’t even think about that in, I didn’t even think that I may need one that even the word ‘mentor’ was not something top of mind for me. So, I didn’t even think. I was occasionally asking, you know, people for help, right? For, “Oh, can you look at something?” Or, “Can you help me?” But, I always felt uncomfortable. I think, I don’t know if this is a generic women thing, but I personally have a tendency that I’m always happy to help others. I feel less comfortable asking for help. And, I think that’s like the main, maybe barrier that if women feel uncomfortable asking for help, eventually that hurts them.
I was afraid of asking, afraid or uncomfortable, and also was worried whether asking for help is going to be seen as a sign of weakness, maybe I’m not as good, you know, because I don’t know something. Is it okay to tell my men counterparts that I don’t know something? That I haven’t heard of a term? Like, if I’m new, and I was new in many teams in technologies that I didn’t know, and like, is it okay to say I have no idea what you’re talking about? You need a certain strength and confidence to be able to say that.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Makes sense. But I think that, that problem of insecurity even lies with the men, I think..
Limor Bergman: Absolutely.
Kovid Batra: Even more there sometimes because of the “alpha” ego and that we carry. So yeah, I totally relate to that. But yes, acknowledging it and overcoming it, and then probably finding a mentor is the right way ahead.
You just mentioned like, people have to be more sensitive when there is a woman in the team and try to be adjusting and offering help. One more thing I realized right now, like it’s a biologically also, it’s a very different journey, right? Like, we can’t give birth to babies, right? Unfortunately. But, that is a time when I know a woman has to choose between work and personal life, right? And I’m sure you have had that point of time in your journey also. How did you go through it? What’s your piece of advice as a mother and a woman leader to the aspiring woman leaders?
Limor Bergman: Wow! That’s an incredible question. So first of all, I am a mother of four children. And, my oldest is 19, and I have a 16-year-old, and my youngest are twins, they’re 13. And, I worked throughout my career. So, it is possible. I worked and I advanced my career. Children are not a barrier. It depends what you prefer and what, you know, it’s very personal. I would say that it was not easy for me, and as you said, like, choosing. It shouldn’t be that way. I shouldn’t need to choose between career and family. Because men don’t have to, right? I mean, there’s a mother and there’s a father. Why should there be a difference? I know, yes, we give birth. Yes, we stay with the babies a little bit. But, why should there be a difference? And, there were times in my life, actually, there was a time before I was planning my second child that I was very unhappy at my work and I was debating with myself and with my husband. What should I do? Whether should I leave and find another job and start someplace else? Or should I stay and expand the family? My husband was very supportive, and he told me that’s my choice to make. But, why would I need to make that choice? If I was a man, that wasn’t the question. The men would leave and find another job and extend the family. But a woman, like if I’m planning to expand, I felt uncomfortable even interviewing for a company, knowing that I may be pregnant or may be pregnant soon. And, why should it be that way? It shouldn’t. And I do see a change. The good thing, I do see a change, but not frequent enough and not enough that employers sometimes, you know, even higher women knowing that they are pregnant, talk more freely about it and say, that’s not a problem. Join here, start and then go take care of your baby and come back. So I do see some employers do that, but I, I guess what I would like to say is don’t look at it as a barrier for employer sides, for manager side, and try to be more open-minded. It’s not like a problem. It’s natural cycle of our lives, right? I mean, expanding the families and women, we are very capable. We are capable of doing so many things, taking care of our kids and our careers, and doing everything. And, we do it very well and we know how to manage our time and be very, very effective. So, trust us that we know what we’re doing and don’t treat us as like, Oh, you know, “She’s having a baby, so she cannot do that.”
Kovid Batra: Yeah. I totally feel that. I respect my parents, but I have a little more respect for my mother, because I genuinely feel the kind of like, a, it’s a naturally built thing and it is hard physically and mentally and you still fight through it. So, you are better warriors, maybe you are the gladiators. The hard reality in the industry is people seek profits and when it comes to work, people forget, like we need to be sensitive towards such things. But I hope, I wish, with this messaging, with these kind of thoughts, we are able to change a few more lives.
Limor Bergman: Absolutely.
Kovid Batra: All right. That was really intense and interesting. Let’s move on to something that I think the audience would also love to know. Like, coming to the core work thing, like how do you deal with situation of fast-changing technology in your engineering teams? So basically, what kind of challenges you face? How do you deal with those challenges? Can you just give us a few examples?
Limor Bergman: Absolutely. So, as I said, right, I started with the story that I started with COBOL and I moved to Java. I didn’t know anything about Java, nothing. And, it wasn’t like today that you have so many online trainings and courses and so easy to learn something new. And, I just had to learn it basically by myself. There are some books. Yes. But I had to learn for myself and ask a lot of help, right? I mean, be willing to ask for help. I was joining a team of super-smart people, very talented and much more experienced than I am. So, don’t be afraid to ask for help, I guess. And, be always willing to learn. And then I, I moved from, as I said, I started with Java Applets, and then moved to backend to Java enterprise edition. It was back then in infancy was the hot new thing. So, don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to learn. We are constant learners. Technology changes so fast. And, if you are not willing to adopt and to learn, you will stay behind. You will stay behind, I’ll tell you that. You know, I took a challenge, you know, when I moved to Sun Microsystems, not at the beginning, but, but after about a year, I joined a team that did real-time Java. So, I actually had to dig into the virtual machine itself, and handle with real-time threads.
So like, I’m not saying I’m the bravest and smartest. But, I wasn’t afraid of trying, of getting into very, very uncomfortable situations. So, just keep on evolving and learning. I mean, never be afraid of a challenge. Be willing to learn and grow, stay up to date, and don’t be afraid to ask for help.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Now, let’s say, as an engineering leader or an engineering manager, you’re working on a project and you feel that this new technology would be more supportive to the requirements of the business, and you have to take this hard ball of maybe branching out and working on this piece. Before you do that, this can go both ways. Like, it can become a problem in the fast-paced growth of a company, right? You’re adopting a new technology, then you have to skill up and do things. When you take this call, what all considerations come into your mind? How do you lay out that structure that, okay, now we have made a conscious choice, made a conscious decision that this is the right thing or the right technology to go forward with? How do you do that?
Limor Bergman: I think you start with the first, what you’re trying to build. You know, what do you need, what technology to use I think you need to assess, you know, what is out there, maybe what other companies are doing, what is industry standard, you know, be always, you know, on top of what’s going on of the trends and choose a technology that can provide you with solutions to the problems you need in the best and fastest way. And, a lot of times engineers are married to something, right? Because they, that’s what they know. So, there are, you know, I had like, engineers that wanted to use a certain database just because that’s what they know. Is this the right choice? Maybe not always. So, ask yourself, I’m just taking a database as an example, am I choosing it just because I know it? Or I have some, some favoritism for this? Or is it really the right choice for what I need? So, make a list, those are the requirements. And, consider several options. It’s always good to consider multiple options before making a decision, not just one. Try to remove the bias. Make it more data-driven rather than opinion-driven.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. I think getting rid of that bias automatically opens your mind. And, then get down to the point where you, you know that, okay, this is beneficial for the business, this is what we need in the next six months as a product. So, then you start thinking that way. Otherwise, I think it’s, if you go by the gut, if you go by the instinct, then of course you would do something that you already know. So yeah, it’s very important to get rid of that bias and then take a decision.
Perfect. Next thing that I would like to ask you for anyone, how should one progress in the career in tech? Like, how one can make the best choices for them? And especially, I would love to hear a perspective again on the women in the tech industry, like how should one progress in the career and what, how should they make the best choices for them?
Limor Bergman: I mean, that’s a hard question to answer because it’s very generic, because I would say, at first you need to be deliberate about what you want in your career, and what interests you, what you’re passionate about, how do you see yourself in a few years. I didn’t always know that. I remember when I was promoted to a staff engineer at Sun, that was when the career kind of progression was split between management and IC track. And, you know, I was on the IC track. My manager decided that, you know, that’s the right next step for me. But, I actually started doubting whether that’s what I wanted. Do I want to become a specialist? Do I want to continue being a software developer for the entire career? And I realized that no, I didn’t, and I wanted to, to become a manager. It took me several years to do that, just because I wasn’t really thinking about that strategically. So, be strategic and then find opportunities to build the skills that you need in order to move forward towards the direction you want. Whether it’s learning new technologies like I had. I had a client who wanted to move to machine learning and artificial intelligence. So, they knew what they wanted. So now, it’s about, okay, how do I learn? How do I find opportunities to meet people? And with that knowledge, build a network, contribute to open source, whatever. I mean, just you have to be deliberate about what you want and start building a plan towards that.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Makes sense. So, having a clarity on what we exactly need, and what, where we want to be based on that, the choices should be made. Yeah, that makes sense.
Perfect. This is my last question to you. Now you have been coaching and mentoring multiple engineering teams and engineering leaders. How do you define the success of an engineering team, and how do you measure it? How do you make sure that while you’re thriving for success, You’re taking care of the developer well-being also, you’re taking care of their experience, so that at the end of the day, your team is happy and motivated to do whatever you want to do as a team?
Limor Bergman: Yeah. So, there are multiple things, right? It’s about culture, motivation, and all those soft things. And there are productivity, you know, effectiveness and those things that, that you want to measure. I think, about soft areas, the motivation, it’s about connecting with people. It’s about caring for them. It’s about knowing how to ask the right questions constantly being interested in them and their career aspirations, what interests them, what they want to do, what they like doing, what they’re good at and helping them thrive, and building those connections.
About the team, whether they’re productive or not, there are different areas to look at that. So, you can look at quality, you can look at reliability, you know, there are different aspects, development speed, how predictable you are as a team. And, the best way to know that is to measure and look at data. So like, bare minimum, like when you run a team, use a tool, could be JIRA, whatever, I mean. And, start estimating your work, story points, whatever you want, doesn’t matter, you know, whatever works. But, start, you know, estimating, and then compare how much time it actually took to you to deliver versus, you know what you thought. Do retros and, and constantly improve, because you want to see how good you are with estimating, how predictable you are as a team.
I also, you know always looked at what was not planned. What kind of work did we do? And, I was forcing engineers to put in JIRA, I kid you not. Tags of this was not like, I don’t remember the tag you use, but like, this is something new that came up because it was important. And I explained to them, always explain the why. I explained, “That’s not because I want to spy on you, but it’s because I want us as a team to understand what are the things we haven’t expected and how much buffer do we need to take to those unexpected things that will come up.” Right? Eventually, we cannot avoid all of them. Maybe some of them we can.
And then, you have to measure things like mean time to deliver, mean time to recover, all those, you know, measurements that you can do with different tools to know how effective you are as a team, how fast can you develop a new feature, how fast can you find a bug, how fast can you recover from an incident. So, you have to measure all those things, and constantly thrive to be better.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Makes sense. This really helps. And with that, I think, we have come to the end of our show today. I would have loved to talk more on a few topics that I’m really interested in, but in the interest of time, like we’ll have to close here.
Any parting advice for our audience?
Limor Bergman: I mean, parting advice I would say based on all I said here, just continuous learning and growing, it’s a journey. And then, don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to fail. Take challenges and ask for help. It’s part of growth.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Thank you so much, Limor. It was really a pleasant experience having you here.
Limor Bergman: Thank you so much. Kovid. It’s been a pleasure.
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