In the latest episode of 'groCTO Originals' podcast, host Kovid Batra engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Leonid Bugaev, Head of Engineering at Tyk. The episode delves into ‘Thriving in recession: Guide for tech leaders.’
The episode starts with Leonid sharing his background, his approach to balancing work at Tyk with side projects, and the key differences between remote and distributed companies. He explains the impact of economic downturns on businesses, stressing survival as the primary objective. He also shares communication techniques for announcing layoffs to developers and explores challenges in managing teams and maintaining operational efficiency in difficult situations. Leo also advises engineering leaders to prioritize customer retention and think in business terms instead of engineering and R&D. He suggests encouragement through additional bonuses & learning opportunities to employees who stay after layoffs.
Lastly, Leonid concludes with essential advice to view change as a driver of innovation and growth rather than a threat.
Kovid Batra: Kovid Batra: Hi, everyone. This is Kovid, back with all new episode of the groCTO podcast, formerly known as Beyond the Code. And today with us on our episode, we have a very special guest who has 18 years of engineering and leadership experience. He's currently heading Engineering for Tyk. Welcome to the show. Leonid.
Leonid Bugaev: Hello.
Kovid Batra: Great to have you here.
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah. Glad to be here. So, it's a good chance to, and a very interesting topic, which was suggested. Uh, so I'm, you know, like I have been in IT for the last 20 years. So a lot of things, I see the companies rising and falling, uh, uh, tried various technologies, uh, I've been both like very deep in engineering, uh, and now I'm in more leadership roles for the last 10 years. So it will be interesting to, you know, like share some of this experience, I guess.
Kovid Batra: Sure. Absolutely, absolutely. But before, uh, like we get started on our today's topic, uh, which is very interesting, and I think nobody has talked about it yet, even though it has been there from the last few years. So we are definitely.. For the audience, I'm just putting it out loud, uh, we are going to talk about how to navigate and lead dev teams during the time of recession. So that's the topic for today. But before we jump into this topic, Leo, I think, uh, we would love to know a little bit more about you. Uh, something, uh, around your hobbies, your personal life that you think would be interesting and would love to share with the audience. So please go ahead and tell us who Leo is.
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, like, uh, I was also, you know, like a person who is, who likes challenges, and I was also into like, you know, like startup side projects and all this kind of stuff. So like, I had my first business, it's like at 17 in university, and you know, like, uh, I always worked for startups as well and I really enjoyed it. So I've never really been in, like in a big corporate environment. So, similar, always fast-paced rhythm, and I really enjoy it. So as for now, I'm, you know, like I'm currently living in Istanbul. I'm, you know, like I have two kids, a beautiful wife. And like, uh, I personally, uh, kind of like my hobbies and like my work is kind of like a good intersection. I still, uh, up to this day, I do have a lot of side projects. Some of them I even try to monetize actually, some of them just like for fun and I always stay up-to-date, especially like with the current AI hype and all this kind of stuff. So I'm very, very curious, and, uh, yeah, okay, that's it.
Kovid Batra: Great, great. And what about your current role at Tyk, like when you were heading engineering for such a company, uh, which is multinational, like you have offices in different parts of the world. How is your experience, uh, working at a multinational? Whereas when you say, uh, you are very curious, you have a lot of side projects, don't you think it is very contrasting, like, uh, on a daily life, how you see things?
Leonid Bugaev: Uh, well, I don't know if, you know, like, uh, uh, if it's actually contrasting or not, but you know, like an interesting thing is that I probably would never again work in the office, for example, that's definitely, you know, affected my life in the last 10 years, I'm working like fully remotely, uh, for various, like clients in the US in the Europe, et cetera. And it, uh, changed my lifestyle a lot. Uh, it changed the way how I, uh, manage my work-life balance, how I find time for my, like side projects as well and so, because like it allows you to save some of the time as well. And, uh, yeah, so it's, uh, it's very interesting. And being like a distributed company, you know, like there is also kind of a bit of a difference between like remote and distributed company because when we're talking about remote companies, for example, like you have an office in like your country and then employees like working from other cities, for example, in that country, and you are still close to each other, but being distributed means that people are literally spread across the world, a lot of mixed, different time zones. It's, uh, very, very challenging for building in general, like, uh, teams, the communications, all the channels, and you know, like being, you know, like efficient in communication and so on, becomes like super important and actually like essential for survival of such teams, I guess.
Kovid Batra: Yeah.
Leonid Bugaev: So it's for sure affected a lot, you know, like as the way how I think, how I build the teams, what kind of people I hire and so on. Yeah.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Great. All right. Thanks for that quick intro, Leo. Let's move on to, uh, our main topic for the day. And, uh, Let's start discussing about these economic crisis that happen time to time in the world, right? And, uh, the latest one is something that we are going through and almost out of it. We are really not sure about it, but we have seen the, yeah.
Leonid Bugaev: I highly doubt it.
Kovid Batra: Yeah, but we have definitely seen the consequences of it from various angles, in our society, in our companies, everywhere. So I think I just want to first understand, uh, from your perspective, how do you see these economic downturns and how do they play into, uh, companies and businesses when they come?
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah. Overall, like, uh, when you live long enough, you start seeing the patterns. When it repeats again and again, you, like, are not surprised anymore that much, and you kind of like know what to expect and what to prepare for. And I think that's like one of the most important things to understand here. So it's always like, uh, economics, et cetera, it's always in cycles. So we had some amount, for example, of time with cheap money, uh, short, like percent rates, uh, a lot of loans, we see market is booming, everyone gets investments and so on. And now, we are in the, like an interface. So like money is very, very hard. Uh, loans under like a big percentage, and the way how companies get treated, uh, from the outside and from the inside change dramatically because, like your values in the company change a lot. And, uh, in a lot of the cases, you know, like, um, I think one of the main things to understand during these times is that it's not.. First of all, it's a time of chance because the ones who will survive this period, will afterwards get a way nice bonus and a very big boost.
So your first goal as a company during such times is to survive, and it's actually not that easy, especially, you know, like if company gets used to, for example, to the VC money, constant growth, and so on, because like, uh, as I mentioned, like I do feel it, I have some like insights on how the stuff works and right now, getting the investment, et cetera, is much, much harder. In the past, it was enough to get to, you know, like to convince investors that like you have some traction, some good ideas, numbers, et cetera. Now they're looking for the cashflow. How much money do you have in the bank? How much time, how much money you spend, et cetera? Are you profitable or not? I remember those times when companies that were bought, were measured in Instagrams. Like, uh, this company was bought for two Instagram, for three Instagram, et cetera. You know, like, uh, and, uh, they, some of them even didn't have revenue, like you know, like the market was booming. And also, you know, like I do see a lot of consolidation in the market happening. Uh, so yeah, if it's even, like when applied to like our market, like it were like API management and so on. I do see some vendors literally like bankrupt, uh, in the lighter industries as well. Some of them get bought by bigger vendors, et cetera. So it's, you know, like very challenging times. And as I mentioned, like survival, uh, not even growth, but survival is probably one of the main, uh, ideas which you need to understand when going through recession, I think, and it actually involves a lot of steps and, uh, and changing the mindset on how you use a company and its values. Yeah.
Kovid Batra: Cool. Totally. I think it's very important to understand, as you said, that these are the patterns and they are bound to happen, and with that, I just want to like move on to something which I feel that everyone should, whether you are in the engineering department of a company or you are in any other department of the company, you should be financially, economically, um, aware that these things can happen anytime and one needs to be prepared for such kinds of turmoil. And that's applicable not just to individuals, but also to the businesses as well. What do you think? What's your thought on that? How companies that have come out well out of this situation have been able to navigate it or handle it better?
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah. Well, first of all, like for example, my role is like an engineering leader. Like I understand that like if you actually spend more time with engineering, like 90 percent of your time is spent with engineering and not with, like the leadership team and business. You're doing the job wrong, especially in such times, because in such times, you really need to spend way, way more time to communicating like, uh, and understanding the business part, how you actually earn the money. And if you're talking about, like, you know, like metrics, like there's actual money on the table, at that time, it's the main metric, and, uh, you need to, you know, like clearly understand where you spend the money and what is your, like, uh, like return on investment. Let's say so. That's why, you know, like during such times, uh, we may see that some of the like research and development projects get closed. There are some like, uh, uh, optimizations of the talent, which was maybe too hard, like too much during the, like good times and so on. The important part here is that if it's not done right, it can actually also like harm the company because like, you know, like if you see that like your cash flow is not where you want it to be. And, uh, if the leadership team, for example, that is, like, not maybe like that's like technical or similar, and you do not have a good connection, the decisions are still made from the above. And if they don't fully understand, like the product, and if you don't fully understand the product, there can be some consequences. All of it needs to be synchronized with the business.
Kovid Batra: Right.
Leonid Bugaev: And, uh, so if you have some, for example, multiple products which you offer to the customers, you need to clearly understand like how much each of those products actually bring you money, and how much time, for example, you spend on the customer support, on the development time, and so on and so forth. And you need to, like, manage all this, like, uh, like, even, like, spreadsheets, and so on. And same with, you know, like money and understand, like, things like budgeting for the tooling, for the HR, and so on and so forth. I know that, like for a lot of people, especially, from, like engineering, it's very hard to talk about money and very hard to deal with these kinds of like routine tasks as well.
And I've been there myself. I mean, like, uh, and it's still very hard for me. It's still like a cause, like, you know, like procrastination and fear and you know, like, I just want to do things. Uh, but you know, like the tip here is, it's like if you will not be able to like optimize this money, et cetera, you will not have a company to work with or for, and like, uh, you won't be able to do things anymore.
Kovid Batra: And I think the biggest, I think the biggest challenge for someone who is coming from a technical background is having that context right. The first step is that, like first you understand what exactly the business is saying. And then as a leader, like, as you said, you have experienced it yourself. I'm sure you would have been in that place where you would have gotten that understanding that where you are right now. But then, you have the whole team to lead along, right? And like take along and lead them so that they are also aligned with the business goals. So I think that's more difficult than, uh, for yourself to first understand what's going on. So I might be, um, having that exposure as an engineering leader on a day-to-day basis with the business, with the product and everything. And it would be still a little easier for me to understand what's going on there. And based on that, I can gain that context and I can definitely align my thoughts to that. But when it comes down to delivering that context to someone who has less exposure to the business, to the product, and let's be very frank and true about it. Like, we try to bring developers to that point where they have complete customer empathy, they have complete exposure to all the things that are happening in the business. But of course there is a layer where leaders are talking, engineering managers and product managers are talking who have context for both sides, but developers are still in that silo where when you start explaining to them these concepts, it might not come easy to them, right?
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah. Yeah. It's really tricky. And, you know, like especially when you know, like a company starts to get like mature, you kind of like, you have to build the layers, like managers, like managers of managers, some, like the board, et cetera. And not everything, first of all, can be, you know, like exposed. Sometimes you can expose it only at the, like, at the final minute or similar. There were a bunch of, like posts on the Hacker News, et cetera, with some examples on how people get fired via Zoom without, like, uh, you know, like a previous notice, et cetera, et cetera. And I've, you know, like, I've been through similar situations. There is always a story behind it. It's not easy, and, you know, there is no easy answer behind it on how to, like deliver such news. So it's very challenging. Working in this role, I've been through multiple, like leadership trainings and one of them, which I found very interesting is, basically they interview, uh, like quite a lot, like multiple sessions and they kind of build like your, like psychological profile with your values, et cetera. And that's you know, quite an interesting document in the end, uh, where you can better understand yourself and it's one that you can also share with your peers, so they will understand like what kind of a person you are, what are your values, et cetera. And my profile was quite unique, uh, in the sense that like, uh, uh, I had like two major like, um, motivators, how they call it. And my major was like, uh, 'peace and harmony', and the second was 'enjoy life and be happy'. You know, like it really contrasts with what I actually need to do sometimes when like, you know, like when such thing happens and, uh, it was, you know, like way hard for me, like it was like a mental shift for myself on how to approach the situations, how to not blame myself, how to, you know, like be more peaceful, how to be reasonable and how to explain it to like people whom you manage, why these changes are required and so on and so forth.
But it's never easy. It's never easy, but once you get, uh, some clear picture and some clear message, and especially, if this clear message is coming from the company, not just, like from you, like this is the direction where we're going, this is what we need to do, et cetera, it becomes actually much easier because like, and especially like, um, for example, uh, at Tyk, we try to share all our financial numbers, churn, new customers, et cetera, et cetera, in the company dashboard, and we share it with everyone publicly in our Slack every month. So every month, everyone can see our numbers, where we're going, are we good, are we bad, et cetera. And every few months, uh, we have like a call with the leadership team where we also try to be open, uh, about the challenges. Obviously, sometimes when, you know, like, uh, for example, we had like one round of layoffs, like about like one and a half year ago, and, uh, sometimes you can't mention all the things. You can put some, you can start preparing for the challenges, you can start, uh, like showing the data, et cetera. It takes some time for people also to prepare for you. It obviously, also rises anxiety, and you need to somehow deal with this anxiety. And that's where, you know, like the personal relationships, uh, with your team is very, very important. You can't treat them just like as employees, you have to be very close to them. And so, they will trust you and your judgment and so on. But yeah, it's, it's challenging. It's challenging.
Kovid Batra: I totally understand, and I feel you there. In these situations, I think the most important part is like first keep your calm in place and then keep everyone and treat everyone as humans, not just employees there. I think that's the biggest factor that would drive how you are communicating things. Of course it really matters what the company's communicating and within that concise communication you are putting across the next steps from there, because for any human, uh, it's very true. Like when you tell something and you keep it open-ended and it's bad news, people would run into chaos, right? They wouldn't know what's going on. They would have their own interpretations. They would decide their own next steps, right? But when it comes with the thought of empathy, with clear, concise communication, and you as a leader are connected and you have your calm in place., I think you would be able to navigate through this situation in a much, much better way as compared to someone who is not doing this.
So in this situation, when you did something, can you recollect some of those incidents, some of those, uh, anecdotal things that happened at that point of time, uh, which you did and could be a good example to explain where you took care of these aspects and, uh, you felt that you did right in that situation? The person who came to you asking, uh, what's going on and you were able to actually help them understand what exactly happened and how things could look like in the near future. So has anything of that sort happened with you?
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah. So, uh, first of all, as I mentioned, not all information can be, you know, unfortunately, you know, like shared with, like people whom you manage, et cetera, and there comes a period of time when you like, you know, like are by yourself and you know the news, but you can't tell them, and you know, like this tricky situation when you jump on a call with someone, but you know, for example, that they will leave and, but you can't tell it. So like, uh, that's definitely like a tricky one. The last time when we had a similar situation, it was very important to actually track some metrics as well, because, um, if there is, uh, one case when you've had to let go a very good employee and like everyone is asking, "Why? What's happened?" I don't know why. And another case is that like, uh, when there is some known issue, yes, maybe you try to fix it, some performance improvement plan or similar. Um, and also if it's like covered by some metrics, uh, like sprint points or similar, that's another case. And especially, if, uh, such metrics are visible to your, like engineering leaders, to your managers, for example, and so on, and then like, in such situations, there always will be people who are confused, afraid, angry, and so on and so forth. What's very important is that like, you can't please everyone. That's like, that's a bad situation from all angles, no matter how you take it. But it's very important that like, uh, You're like a core team, you're like a managing team, etc. You'll be prepared for it and you'll have the right questions, the right answers to the questions. In advance, before all it happens, I've tried to like prepare, like some, like a questionnaire, whatever questions they may end up with, from the people whom they manage and so on. And it makes them like, uh, like much more calm, much more easier because like they know what to answer.
And another case is that like a person will leave and will not get any, like exit package or similar. Another thing is if you know that like this person will be treated well, and like, you know, the company will give them like some good exit package and so on. So having such details and mentioning them to like managers again, et cetera, is also very important. So you need to, uh, clearly explain them the reasons and these should be very valid reasons and give them all the documentation, uh, all the numbers. And, uh..
Kovid Batra: I think it becomes all the way, all the way more important to have this level of clear communication, better performance reviews, and understanding for yourself, as well as for someone whom you're talking to. So like starting from your, uh, clear and concise communication which is transparent enough to gain that trust, and then coming down to doing proper performance reviews, even emphasizing more in those times, because people would ask for explanation that would be in a very chaotic mind-shape. So for sure, these are some of the leadership techniques that one can learn from this discussion that one should have when they are going through this particular situation. Apart from this, like, yeah.
Leonid Bugaev: I just wanted, like to add one more thing, like from, actually from a good point, from the good side. The trick is that sometimes such a shape for the company is actually a very good thing. So sometimes you get used to like a more relaxed rhythm to like, um, more like everything is good, like, uh, like everything is, everyone doing well, et cetera, and people are starting to be like calm, relaxed. And when we actually did this action, like the round of layoffs, and as I mentioned, like we focused only on people who had an issue with performance, whom we identified. We actually found it's like our overall, like velocity and like the ability to deliver actually increased.
Kovid Batra: Yeah.
Leonid Bugaev: So, uh, that actually went really good for the company.
Kovid Batra: And I think it should be like that in those situations, because when you talk about the leadership or the founders, in such situations, they become more aggressive because they have to like adjust to what is going on and like adapt to what is going on and like aggressively fight in those situations, and similarly, if as a team, as a company, if you're not doing that, of course, there are chances that you would fall apart. So I think it's definitely good what you are saying that will bring everything in place from the point of view of a leader to deliver what is needed in those situations. So, yeah, cool. And I think with that note, where we're talking about optimizing things and going through this, uh, stress situation, there is a lot that needs to be done in those times because you have a lower number of resources now and you have to deliver more, right? So how do you take up that challenge? Because, um, however we may put it, when people feel the fear of, uh, losing their jobs, that kind of a situation always sometimes pushes them to do even more, but also, people take a backseat, right? They know that anything wrong can happen. So how do you manage teams? How do you deliver operational efficiency in that situation?
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah. If your company did it at least once, then people would expect that most things come in the future and, you know, like the order levels of anxiety always, you know, like it will rise. No matter what you do, you can't just like smooth it somehow. But, uh, if you, like are regularly doing it, like, as I mentioned, some clear communication and being very open about your actions, uh, they start to understand it. And also, um, it's not about, you know, like providing, uh, these actions during it when it happens, it's also giving them, for example, you know, like what actually gives people a feeling of like productivity or feeling good, et cetera. Usually, it's progress. It's like seeing that you're like progressing somewhere and it can be seen in various things. So it can be, for example, in enhancing performance reviews, as you mentioned, so like, uh, when you start focusing on the performance. Like, and what we actually, one of the actions we did is that we provided a very clear format on how performance reviews should be done, but, you know, focus not on, you know, like, kind of like punishing people if they don't hit some goals, like they have an issue, but, you know, like trying to work together with them to provide some opportunities to grow. Like, "You want to go through some, like, a Kubernetes certification course? No problem. We'll give you budget for this." So, like, let's give some opportunities for learning and so on. So, uh, those people who are like left in the company, they should be encouraged, uh, and they should be motivated, they should maybe get some like additional bonuses and so on. And sometimes like if your company offers it, et cetera, sometimes maybe it also makes sense to motivate with additional, I don't know, like stock options, for example, or like some salary bumps, or similar. So like that's kind of like also essential.
And also like product metrics are also very important because like when the team is working on some feature, some product and they don't have visibility on, uh, does this actually bring money to the company or not? Like some feedback loops from the customers, they feel a bit disconnected from the business and they don't really understand like what's happening. But when you start connecting them with all of the business metrics, uh, when you stream them, all the, like customer feedback, et cetera, they start to feel that they are part of something bigger. They start to get, like faster feedback loops. They start to see that like, uh, we got this client because of you guys, because you build this, and this actually, you know, like, uh, brings a lot of motivation. Product feedback loops is one of the most important things to motivate your teams and improve stability. Yeah.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. And I think in these times it becomes even more important, right? Uh, less resources, you have to move fast, you have to innovate more to stay in the market, up in the game. So, I think in general, the philosophy, the ideals say that one should be working on high-impact features. Uh, but I think in these times it becomes even more impactful, right? That you have to focus on these areas. You have to work on these metrics. You can't let your customers churn in this situation. You have to do every possible thing that requires your customer to be there to pay you. And of course, that cannot happen without prioritizing things in the right direction. So in these situations, how do you ensure that things are moving in the right direction at an even faster rate?
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah, I think it's also, you know, like, um, important to understand that the overall, like company structure and how the teams get, like built. It makes a lot of, you know, a lot of difference. And sometimes it does make sense to rethink how you actually structure your processes, how you structure your team and so on. So let me give you an example. So, um, we came up with a scheme, like, um, about like two years ago. And right now, we're refining, and we're actually constantly refining it. So, uh, I think like first of all, constantly moving and constantly changing your processes, it's like a, it's a key thing. Don't be afraid of change. Then like, uh, don't be afraid to hire people who do the best, a good job for those things you don't like to do. So, I, for example, I am good with people. I'm good at engineering, but I really don't like, and I'm pretty bad at budgeting at like, uh, long-term planning, at various reporting and so on and so forth. So a few years ago, like when we, um, started scaling the team, and it was like a weird jump, like from, uh, like 10 to 50, for example. It's like a five times change. We realized it's like in order to keep up this growth, we need to support operational, uh, and delivery, um, uh, initiatives. So we hired a person, like who's like really amazing, and we had a really good bond, who took some of those responsibilities out of me. And the same was also about the product vision as well. So when you grow, you need someone to have, uh, uh, especially like if you have multiple departments, multiple teams, et cetera, like some coherent vision of like, uh, so all of those teams will work as like, you know, together and everything that they deliver will be somehow connected to each other. You will be developing it as one team. It's much more efficient rather than you all work separately. And from this point of view, they also, such teams also, uh, really allowed us to help, um, get enough time to build good benchmarks, to build like good metrics for your product, what we want to measure, how we want to measure, what exactly we want to build. So this process is super, super important, especially like in such times going very deep into engineering is not an answer. You need to start optimizing your product for the customers, for the churn, maybe for the user experience and so on. So it's not time for like research and development, and et cetera.
So, yeah, that's for sure. Like, uh, we've changed a lot. And right now, for example, we're also trying to like change and optimize some of the processes we, you know, like, uh, trying to, I would say, uh, involve, uh, our technical leads even more into the product area, even more like into non-engineering tasks. So they, together with like product managers, they will plan some like roadmaps in advance, find some brokers, et cetera, and try to think as a product, as a business, as a, as from the money point of view, how are we going to sell it? How are we going to like, you know, like what kind of like customers and jobs are to be done. We want to be covered. So we're trying to like teach people how to think business-wise, in business language, not in the engineering language.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. The understanding that I'm building here to actually navigate such situations is to have the right culture coming in place with people. And along with that, of course, you would put more focus on those important metrics, which will be impactful, whether they are from the operational efficiency point of view, or whether these are some metrics that directly link to customer satisfaction, customer engagement. So I think a combination of the culture, the right operational metrics and right product and business metrics would sum up to give you a framework, uh, on how teams should operate in such situations. So even though we have talked about the operational part and the customer-centricity part, I would want to understand, like, when you are trying to bring in this culture, that things have changed and you're bringing that transparent communication, you're trying to bring people together, how do you ensure that people are really onboarded? Like, do you go an extra mile to understand that from your teams? Or what exactly do you do to understand whether everyone is coming on the same boat or not?
Leonid Bugaev: Yes. So first of all, when you know, like such things happen, like when there are some big changes, uh, it's going through like multiple phases. First, you have a phase, uh, like preparation. And during this preparation, I usually try to prepare like engineering leaders, uh, with the message. And like, as I mentioned, like prepare them in advance, but the team members still like don't know about it, majority of them. So when, uh, such as something here, like some big announcements happen, some changes, uh, usually it's like a company-wide announcement, like from the founders, from the board, et cetera. And then it should be followed really, uh, to be at the team-level, uh, like calls, uh, more private ones, et cetera. It's very important that every team will have, uh, how to say, like a 'safe zone' to speak out. Usually, it's first of all, people feel safer when they are in a smaller group, especially when they are within the team. Also they need to feel that like you are part of the team, not just like some boss from the top. So like as they should be able to openly speak with you about the problems, about the concerns and so on. And you as a person when you like joint such calls, you should be like super-transparent and super-open. You can't afford to say something like, "I don't know." You can't afford to say like, "I can't tell you this." Or similar. You should be very confident and you should be able to answer any kind of, like concern, or like follow-up later on it and so on. So if you will not be confident, then like, as they will also will not be confident and that's like, that's super important.
So like preparation and getting in advance all the questions, all the answers is super important. And also another thing is that, uh, when you build the, um, like hierarchy of the, like management, et cetera, sometimes maybe, people, uh, so it actually also depends on the cultures a lot. Like while working in distributed teams, I realized that like people from different cultures are very different in communication. Some of them are like very open, uh, some of them are very direct. Some of them are afraid to ask questions in public. And, uh, when you know this, like nuances, you can treat it better. So you need to know your people, you need to know your team. And for some of the team members, to whom I see that, like, they are, like, quiet, they, like, uh, they, and, and I see that by their face, by their emotion, like, something is not right, I will follow-up directly one-on-one with them, or, like, if I know that, like, they have a very good relationship with their manager, for example, I will ask the manager to follow-up with them, and if they have any concerns, to, like, communicate with me directly, and so on. But you need to be constantly on the line and constantly be available for any kind of communication, especially like, uh, for the first week, like, it should be like your main job. Communication, communication, communication. Your main job when such things are happening is to come to people, to give them answers and to be available to them. So the worst thing you can do is that like send some announcement and then like close Slack, whatever you use. And like, you know, like don't answer and, you know, like be back in a few days and so on. So that's, yeah, the worst thing.
Kovid Batra: Cool. I think that that's some really, uh, I would say, hands-on advice coming from someone who has seen situations, and that seems to be very helpful and we can totally relate to it. So now, when, uh, you have, uh, made us understand how things should move in such situations, what's your forward-looking strategy? Or what's your, like major pointers that someone should take away from the whole discussion that we have had? So I would like to quickly summarize that, uh, as we are running out of time. And, uh, hear from you the last few important concluding pointers.
Leonid Bugaev: Yeah, right. So, like, I think like the number one is that like, uh, uh, you should stop, um, being afraid of money-related questions. So, money becomes the number one essential metric, and you need to understand how the company makes money, how the product makes money, which exact parts of the product make money, and which of them are actually, you know, like don't and actually drain your money. So that's number one to understand. You can't do it if you do not have the proper metrics in place. So like, uh, configuring, first of all, like product usage metrics is super important, but also having team metrics, uh, is equally important, specifically like knowing how much in terms of like code category of tickets, the features, et cetera, how much time do you spend? And how much is, for example, uh, change failure rate, or maybe like cycle times for specific, like product features. And, you know, like in the end, like if you, for example, know that like your team spends, I don't know, like $20,000 per sprint, then when you start like making the features, uh, like some customer asks you to like build some feature. Okay, it will take us one sprint to build. It'll cost you like a $20k, you know, like, is it actually worth doing or not? You know, like.
Kovid Batra: Yeah.
Leonid Bugaev: So money becomes very important. And, uh, when you actually need to make the hard decisions, you need to like, uh, the communication is the key. The transparency, if you like as a leader, don't have the answers, if you're not confident, people will not be confident the same. And you should be very close to your team. They should treat you as a team member. You should build the trust lines and you should do it before. It's not like you're coming one day, like, "Hello, I'm your friend. "No, like, it's like, it takes time. And, um, you should have, uh, uh, especially like if you like to have a more complex, bigger team, you should have a very good chain of communication. And also another thing is that you should have, um, very good performance review, uh, process and the performance improvement process. Everything should be audited. Everything should have, uh, been written down, et cetera. It will help you so much in the future if you need to make some hard decisions. And when you make them, when, for example, you need to like lay off some people, especially like if it's like monthly or similar, the best thing you can do as a leader is to be with the people like, uh, "I'll be available.” Your calendar should be open for anyone and you should be proactively following up with everyone, answering all the questions and being as transparent as possible.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Makes sense. Totally. It is very, very important to communicate to the teams that they should be involven during these phases in constant innovation and learning so that they can find out areas where they can actually create the impact even in such times. So motivating them in the other direction, like telling them that things would be fine if we move with this motivation of continuous learning and improvement and taking steps towards more innovation. I think, uh, would definitely bring that change and make it easy for everyone, uh, to navigate such situations.
I think with that, uh, I think, uh, we come down to the closing notes. Uh, any parting advice, Leo, for our audience, like, uh, who are aspiring engineering leaders, passionate engineering leaders out there, anything you want to share?
Leonid Bugaev: Uh, don't be afraid to change. So the change is always, you know, frightening, but it's essential for innovation and growth. So that's, yeah, the major, I think, advice.
Kovid Batra: Perfect, man. Perfect. All right. Thanks a lot, Leo. It was great having you on the show. Uh, really, really insightful thoughts. And I think the hands-on experience always says for itself. So cheers, man.
Leonid Bugaev: Thank you so much for having me here.
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